January 29, 2009...9:12 pm

Reproductive Self-Determination and the Bondage of the Pill: Preaching like Calvinists and Procreating like Arminians

Jump to Comments


From Chapter 3 of the 1997 UNFPA “State of World Population”:

“In most of the world the initiation, timing and final level of fertility are now recognized as a matter of conscious choice. When asked in surveys, men and women are increasingly able to indicate how many children they would like to have, what their ideal number of children is, how many children they would want to have if they were starting their reproductive life now, and whether or not their last birth was wanted or timed as they would have preferred. This is in marked contrast to three decades ago, in the infancy of national population programmes, when fatalistic answers (“What-ever happens, happens,” “It’s up to God”) accounted for a significant minority of responses.”

In the eyes of the United Nations, believing that the birth of children is “up to God” is nothing short of fatalism. Unfortunately, the same is true in the hearts and minds of countless American Evangelicals…even many of the Reformed ones. In their defense of the Sovereign work of God in salvation, it would seem that many in the Reformed camp have lost sight of the Sovereign work of God in procreation. While “monergism” is their battle cry for the new birth, “synergism” has usurped their understanding of the natural one. In their defense of family planning, they have muddied the waters of their procreative theology. Allow me to attempt to explain…

In commenting on political language and the use of euphemism, George Orwell once wrote:

“Such phraseology is needed if one wants to name things without calling up mental pictures of them…The inflated style itself is a kind of euphemism. A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outline and covering up all the details. The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink.”

“Family planning” is a euphemistic term that a host of Reformed Protestants have bought into, hook, line, and sinker (or for you non-fishers out there, that means that we’ve swallowed the entire thing!). As Reformed Protestants, we rightly feel uncomfortable calling the intentional closing of the womb “birth control”, for it calls to mind a sense of human independence that sends shudders down our 5-Point spines. To infer that man can control something as high and holy as the creation of a new life in image of the Triune Sovereign God of the universe is an idea that, to stomach, must be softened into a kinder, cooler understanding of “family planning” or “reproductive self-determination”.

Self-determination, you say? What say you, Dr. Luther? What power have we over the “miracle of life”?:

“Although God is wont to confirm His doctrines by miracles, without any respect to the carnality of the age: nor is He at all moved, either by the merits or demerits of a carnal age, but by pure mercy and grace, and a love of souls which are to be confirmed, by solid truth, unto their glory. But we give you the choice of working any miracles, as small an one as you please.

But come! I, in order to irritate your Baal into action, insult, and challenge you to create even one frog, in the name, and by virtue of “Free-will;” of which, the Gentile and impious Magi in Egypt, could create many. I will not put you to the task of creating lice; which, neither could they produce. But I will descend a little lower yet. Take even one flea, or louse, (for you tempt and deride our God by your ‘curing of the lame horse,’) and if, after you have combined all the powers, and concentrated all the efforts both of your god and your advocates, you can, in the name and by virtue of “Free-will,” kill it, you shall be victors; your cause shall be established; and we also will immediately come over and adore that god of yours, that wonderful killer of the louse. Not that I deny, that you could even remove mountains; but it is one thing to say, that a certain thing was done by “Free-will,” and another to prove it.” – sect. 28 of The Bondage of the Will

Luther argued that in the power of his own will, Erasmus could not even kill one flea – and yet we live today as if by our wills we can create a child bearing the image of God. Ask ANY infertile couple today, and they will earnestly affirm that the human will is powerless to provide a child. They have learned from experience that “Unless the Lord builds the house, they who build it labor in vain.” But what does that verse even mean? Let’s take a look at it’s Inspired context:

“Unless the LORD builds the house,
those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city,
the watchman stays awake in vain.
It is in vain that you rise up early and go late to rest,
eating the bread of anxious toil;
for he gives to his beloved sleep.
Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD,
the fruit of the womb a reward.
Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one’s youth.
Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them!
He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

- (Psa 127)

In his commentary on Psalm 127, Calvin writes this about God’s work in our begetting of children:

“The majority of mankind dream, that after God had once ordained this at the beginning, children were thenceforth begotten solely by a secret instinct of nature, God ceasing to interfere in the matter; and even those who are endued with some sense of piety – do not acknowledge that his providential care descends to this particular case… With the view of correcting this preposterous error, Solomon calls children the heritage of God and the fruit of the womb his gift.”

Friends, far too many of us are preaching like Calvinists and yet procreating like Arminians. We trust God for all things, but those things we think we can control for ourselves. We love to talk about God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility in theory, but we treat it quite different in real life. God’s sovereignty is not a back-up plan if our “family planning” responsibilities fail to produce the desired results. We must recognize that we do not effect the new birth in any human being, nor must we presume that we ultimately effect the natural one. Children are a gift, not a biological side effect. Likewise, converts are a fruit of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, not ultimately a result of our effectiveness in presentation or planning (and even then, our planning would be in favor of, and not counter to, new converts). As Calvin writes, “Adam did not take a wife to himself at his own will, but received her as offered and appropriated to him by God.” Adam had no more ability to “plan” for a wife than we do to “plan” for a child. The Originator and Preempter of them both is God. Kathryn Blanchard puts it bluntly, “The honor God gives in allowing humans to be parents is not something to be controlled, regretted, or gloated over, but to be humbly received. It is after God’s image – not individual humans’ own – that these children are formed.” And Calvin again emphasizes the same truth in his commentary on Genesis:

“…when [Jacob] replies that his numerous seed had been given him by God, he acknowledges and confesses that children are not so produced by nature to subvert the truth of the declaration, that the fruit of the womb is a reward and gift of God. And truly, since the fecundity of brute animals is the gift of God, how much more is this the case with men, who are created after His own image. Let parents then learn to consider, and to celebrate the singular kindness of God, in their offspring.”

Beloved, it’s time we recover a Reformed view of procreation, and it starts with the reaffirmation that God is the sovereign Creator of marriage, sex, and children – and we are the responsible creatures who owe him our obedience. Blanchard reminds us that ultimately, “We are not masters of our own procreative destinies.” May we take care, lest we be put to shame by acting like we are.

‘BH

34 Comments

  • LOVE the title and the compelling food for thought … and action.

  • BH,

    Thanks for the thought provoking post. Your writing is “food for thought”.

    But my question is, as a reformed Christian myself, couldn’t it be in God’s sovereign plan for us to be on Birth Control? The way I look at it in the past God knew I was going to be on birth control for awhile before I conceived my daughter. Now I believe if he had wanted me to conceive a child before I did He would have given me one. I would have accepted the child, even though he/she would have been unplanned, but God never gave me a child when I used birth control. Only 3 months after the cessation of the pill did God allow me to become pregnant.

    Now, not every woman becomes pregnant 3 months after stopping the pill. Some do in the first month following the pill and others don’t for a year or more after stopping pills. Somehow God chose a specific time frame for me to become pregnant and to gift me with the precious blessing that He did. It was not in my will, I wanted to be pregnant 3 months earlier (my desire for a child was very, very strong).

    So, even with birth control or no birth control, isn’t God still the master of His plan after all?

  • Yes! This is my primary argument.

  • Hello militarywife!

    I knew you’d show up again eventually. We had an exchange on another post a while back ( http://lawngospel.wordpress.com/2008/03/31/witholding-the-gospel-of-children-from-ourselves/ ) but you never responded to my last comment. I had posted a few questions that apply even here and I’d love to hear your answers. Here they are:

    1) Do you view the Great Commission (“go and make disciples”) as a command but not the Cultural Mandate (“be friutful and multiply”)? Note: He, Who was at the beginning ,said both.

    2) Isn’t using BC (saying: IF God REALLY wants you to have children then He’ll override your method.) tempting/testing Him?

    3) Also, do you (personally) interpret scripture through the lens of the culture, or the culture through the lens of scripture?

    Sincerely,
    Genoise

  • that smiley face wasn’t meant to be there in my comment! the program interpreted my punctuation incorrectly. Sorry about that!

  • Hizzank,

    I don’t know that I’ve asked this before, but I’m sure someone has. But, how do you practically navigate some of the concerns that come up apart from family planning or birth control? For instance, it can be very damaging for a woman not to heal properly after childbirth before getting pregnant again. Or, if a couple starts young, how do you navigate the potential of having bajillions (yes…bajillions) of babies? I can already sense your answer, “I don’t have to navigate it, God will.” Indeed, but I think you then get into the same predicament — saying our sovereign God will navigate it apart from us doing anything.

  • Genoise,

    Sorry I didn’t respond to the last post. It took me some time to really think about this issue, and yes I am still thinking.

    “Be Fruitful and multiply” can mean a number of things. I don’t think it simply means childbearing because in the instances it is used it also means to further the word of God. “Go and make disciples” is a command because of the speech “go and do this!”

    Also as far as being fruitful and multiplying what about those that can’t reproduce? If it truly was a command wouldn’t we all be given the ability to reproduce in the first place? Why would God send people out to do something if he didn’t enable them in the first place?

    As for birth control as a method of tempting or testing God, more people get pregnant using birth control than you’d believe. It also depends on the effectiveness of birth control, a method such as NFP has a far higher failure rate than the pill. Every method has a chance of failure and that chance of failure varies. Now is birth control really “testing” God? Could it be just using the laws of nature (God’s own laws) to prevent pregnancy since true birth control follows the laws of nature mainly?

    As for scripture and its interpretation, I’m pretty sure that there is some interpretation stemming from the culture I grew up in. To say there is none would be to be disingenuous, I’m sure that plays a factor in some. At the same time, I can find no real scriptural evidence to support that using birth control at all is wrong. Song of Solomon never mentions children under the context of sex and there is some argument that this implies that God doesn’t always necessarily associate sex with needing to be procreative.

    And yes there is much wrong with this culture in the way some people view children as burdens and not blessings. But not every person who uses birth control views children as a burden. Many of us adore children, we just want to be able to provide for them well. We want to be wise in judging how many children we can handle based on our living situation. We want to give those children the best opportunity. I know my husband will have to be gone various times throughout the course of his military career. I will have to take care of the children for myself. To have a big family I don’t believe would be right on my part. It’s not because I’m a selfish person, but it’s because I know how much work each child requires and I personally believe that having a large family would be difficult on us in more ways than one.

    At the same time, I believe it’s silly for me to say the number 2 and say it’s final. God could change both our hearts on this issue and he could give us a desire for a big family. And if it works out that way that’s fine.

  • Charitymomoffour

    I think I could address at least part of the last post. God does navigate allowing for a woman to heal properly after childbirth. Exclusively breastfeeding your infant for at least 6 months to a year quite conveniently is designed by God to give your body (usually) a long block of infertile time. With the exception of this last little one, my 4 children have all been at least 2 years apart with no desire on my part to delay childbirth. I beleive that God wonderfully created our bodies, and that includes a woman’s breasts. Before the advent of formula (which was a Godsend in some very rare cases), being the only one (other than a wetnurse) able to feed one’s baby helped to develop that close bonding relationship between mother and child. God knew what He was doing when He made us. Fertility does return sooner when bottle feeding and long separations from baby occur, but I don’t think that this is God’s plan for mothering. (Can you tell that I am for staying home with young children?) Anyway, I think that God had things “planned” out just fine before the early 20th century advent of birth control.

  • The militarywifey’s point toward the end which effectively relates to the stewarding of the children God grants us is crux to my concern. Yes God only gives us what we can handle, but our personal desires of the flesh (maybe to be personally celebrated each time we have a child) could tempt us to go beyond what we can steward and would that not be Satan’s desire to make it harder for us to shepherd their hearts. John Piper has a sermon where he shares a story he was told by a man in Africa relating this to a farmer–if the farmer goes to plant with only intentions to be “fruitful and multiply” he will keep planting seeds and never weed/water the initial crop and the weeds will rise up and suffocate while the crop continues to perish from dehydration.

    On a second issue, saying God could not overcome your chosen method of birth control seems like a denial of his sovereignty as well.

  • Brandon,

    I don’t intend to speak for Hank, but I am a father of eight who has studied the issues you bring up. Six of our children were born at home, and I delivered four of them myself, so I’ve had good reason to look into these things.

    Frankly, you’re manufacturing problems that don’t normally exist. Don’t believe everything the medical profession tells you. They’re rather like liberal politicians: they want to keep you scared and dependent on them.

    it can be very damaging for a woman not to heal properly after childbirth before getting pregnant again.

    What, you mean if she gets pregnant within a week, or a month, or maybe two? That only happens when her slob of a husband can’t leave her alone for a decent interval. That guy needs a vasectomy performed by a blind doctor with Parkinson’s disease, if you get my drift.

    1. It doesn’t take that long for a woman to heal after
    childbirth.

    2. A woman who nurses will seldom recommence ovulating until
    her lactation decreases significantly. If she nurses for a
    year — a good, healthy duration — she will usually not
    ovulate until she quits. My wife began ovulating somewhat
    sooner than that in spite of nursing; consequently, our
    first four children came eighteen months apart — still a
    good, healthy interval.

    if a couple starts young, how do you navigate the potential of having bajillions (yes…bajillions) of babies?

    “Bajillions”? Really? Well, I don’t know everything. As soon as I’m done here, I’m going to google for families with “bajillions” of kids. I’d very much like to know how they did it, too.

    Seriously, there is no risk of having too many children. When God doesn’t want to make any more, he quits. Only athiests should need that explained to them, and I suppose that wouldn’t do much good, anyway. Here’s how it works:

    1. God creates where and when he wants.

    2. Every child ever conceived is an intentional creation
    of God. No child has ever been conceived outside of God’s
    decree. Yes, That includes children of fornication,
    adultery, rape, and incest.

    3. God is never wrong.

    Is there ever hardship connected to having children? Yes; lots of it. Is there hardship for those who have few or no children? Yes. In fact, we are promised trouble just for getting married (I know there’s a Scripture passage that says so, but I’m too lazy to look it up). Single people have their share of trouble, too (but then, they deserve it). So what’s the point? God created a certain order, and because of sin, it now comes mixed with trouble. That’s no reason to change the created order.

  • Mark,

    Excellent post. I have heard of people (like the Duggars, if you are familiar with them) that will deliberately wean their children at an early age so they can have their fertility return and get pregnant again. And I believe that some people, though probably a small minority, may bask in the self-glory they receive after they have a baby or during a pregnancy. There are people that use the number of kids they have to prove they are submitted to the will of God, when actually they just want to appear lofty and great because they have a huge family. Of course, it’s still probably the minority of small families.

    I have another question. I know women who extended breastfeed (breastfeed past one year) with the intention of using it as a birth control method. Is this wrong? I mean they are still using a form of birth control, albeit a natural one, but their intention is to not get pregnant and so they really don’t start weaning the child until they feel they are ready for another child. Isn’t their intention the same as anyone else who uses NFP, condoms, or any other non-abortifacient method of birth control?

    Again breastfeeding as birth control has a variable effect. In most cases, though certainly not all I’ve met women who conceived 2 months after having a child, exclusive breastfeeding for the first 6 months delays fertility. After that, some women regain fertility some don’t for a year and some don’t for as long as they breastfeed. In the past, breastfeeding was a more popular form of birth control and children nursed oftentimes until around 3-4 years of age. In today’s culture, nursing past even one year is looked down upon.

  • minority of large , not small, families, I meant to say

  • Gunny -

    Thanks for the link brother. Enjoy the “food”…lol.

    MW -

    The root issue here is a proper understanding of God’s sovereignty. (Btw, I don’t have it all figured out, and don’t expect to until Jesus comes back!)

    My responsive question is: “Does God, in his sovereignty, allow you to sin?” The answer of course is “Yes.” Now let us say for the sake of understanding that your using of birth control was a sin. The fact that God didn’t use his sovereignty to override your desire to sin, doesn’t mean it still wasn’t sin. We can’t judge the morality of our actions simply by God’s allowance of them, or even blessing in spite of them.

    It seems by the flow of your past arguments that you are confusing a strong view of God’s sovereignty as a “catch-all” for any possible mistakes in family planning. Indeed, God still is the master of all things, but that by no means excuses us of the responsibility to seek His will for marriage, sex, and procreation. There is a reason that Christ taught us to pray, “Thy will be done,” and it is because that is exactly what our lives should be about. Not that “ultimately” His will will be done despite our actions, but that our actions should be seeking to cling to the Cross.

    Brandon -

    Charity has some great points to offer here, and I’ll only add a few more. My primary concern is actually not a rejection of human responsibility (“we don’t have to navigate it”), rather it is to pose a challenge to the assumption that it is “impractical” not to use birth control (for whatever reason). Our idea of what is “natural” or “healthy” has been changed by the technological culture, and predominate contraceptive worldview in which we now find ourselves. The very fact that we can pose questions like “‘if’ a couple starts young,” betrays our contraceptive assumptions, not to mention the tendency to assume “bajillions” of babies are the assured effect of the “natural” family. I can assure you, there are no documented cases of bajillions of children, and furthermore (on a more serious note) the ‘assumed’ understanding of the original readers of Scripture would be “‘when’ a couple starts young” they are never to forget that children are a heritage from the Lord.

    I think until we grasp the practicality of the way God created sex, marriage, and yes, even childbirth – when won’t be able to ‘convincingly’ navigate the effects of it. Basically, there won’t be a good enough reason to support the practicality of dealing with the effects of what we view to be impractical at its foundations. Kinda make sense?

  • David-

    btw, thanks for not speaking for me, and yet saying things better than I ever could have myself!

  • Dear militarywife,

    Although Song of Solomon deals with the pleasures of the sexual union Fertility IS alluded to: Song of Solomon ch.7 v. 2. says, “your waist is a mound of wheat encircled by lilies.” That is the prince addressing his beloved. The wheat, surrounding her waist no less, is a symbol of fertility. He is praising her fertility!
    That’s all I wanted to add.
    Sincerely,
    Genoise

  • Dear militarywife,
    Actually, I want to add more. I was in bed and couldn’t stop thinking about your last post: >> I have heard of people (like the Duggars, if you are familiar with them) that will deliberately wean their children at an early age so they can have their fertility return and get pregnant again. And I believe that some people, though probably a small minority, may bask in the self-glory they receive after they have a baby or during a pregnancy. There are people that use the number of kids they have to prove they are submitted to the will of God, when actually they just want to appear lofty and great because they have a huge family. Of course, it’s still probably the minority of larger families.<>Of course, it’s still probably the minority of larger families.<>let me say I admire your decision to have as many children as God has gifted you with. I believe God has gifted you with alot of grace and patience to tend for all these children and undoubtedly you love and accept each and every one with gladness. I think too much of our culture now condemns women who choose to have large families and that is wrong. We should celebrate these women because they are essential to raising the future generation. So just know that I respect your decision to have a large family and that I admire you as a person for that.<> our culture now condemns women who choose to have large families and that is wrong. We should celebrate these women because they are essential to raising the future generation. <> Now is birth control really “testing” God? Could it be just using the laws of nature (God’s own laws) to prevent pregnancy since true birth control follows the laws of nature mainly?<>“Be Fruitful and multiply” can mean a number of things. I don’t think it simply means childbearing because in the instances it is used it also means to further the word of God. “Go and make disciples” is a command because of the speech “go and do this!”<> God can work beyond the circumstances<< of people choosing to use contraceptives. No one is denying that! Again, the point is: whose prerogative is it to thwart a pregnancy? God’s? Or mine?
    I ask you this, (and no, I do not want or expect an answer) Why do you come to BH’s blog so frequently? I come for encouragement and to be edified. What is the purpose of your comments? Just a healthy debate? That’s good. But is the Lord speaking to you and are you fighting His leading? What is your husband’s position? Ultimately you are obligated to submit to him, but is he in agreement with the things posted here, or are you in unison? Again, I DO NOT WANT A RESPONSE TO THESE QUESTIONS SPECIFICALLY. They are personal and should remain so.
    As I said before, I used to think just like you. I know what it feels like to have one little one (I was 20 when I had my first) and think that’s as much as you can handle and you’re content. I can say for myself that a big part of my ‘contentment’ was thinking of the freedom I would have at the ripe old age of forty. HA! I’m 37 now and realize how young 40 is! I am thankful that I will not have an empty nest then or for a long time to come. I look forward to a full house during holidays in my latter years, and hopefully plenty of grandchildren for sleepovers.  I anticipate sending my ‘arrows’ out, and the Lord allowing me to influence the world because that’s the target! ‘Go and make disciples’ starts in the home. If you can’t follow God’s commands in your own home, your obedience means nothing out in the world. I tell that to my kids all the time. If they can’t love their brothers and sisters, or obey mom and dad, their love for God and obedience to God means NOTHING. And that’s scriptural. (1 John 4:20)

  • Dear David,

    Thanks for your input. It was encouraging.
    We just discovered we are expecting our 8th child in February! :-)

  • militarywifey

    Genoise,

    I hope you didn’t take my statement about the Duggars to include you. There are a few large families that actually aim to have as many children as possible. I wasn’t referring to you or your family because, judging from what you have written in the past, I believe you truly have taken this as God’s will upon your life and you are simply letting Him (no birth control) control how many children to give you. He has given you quite a bit and that is ok. But seeing from what you have written and your thoughts and discussions it seems that you are not really trying to have a big family to show off. You seem genuine and that’s what I meant. I admire people like you who have large families because I don’t believe you do it to prove that you can have X number of kids but because you have submitted this part of your life to God. And I admire that and respect it! But there are people out there who do try to have a record number of children for attention or glory or whatever. There is nothing wrong with having a big family, but there is something wrong with trying to have a record number of children just to show off to people. That has to do with pride and I don’t know if this is the Duggars’ motivation or not, but there are people out there that have children, whether it be one or many to feed their pride. I wasn’t aiming this at you and I hope you know my admiration for you does stand. I’m sorry if you took this as being hypocritical as it was not meant to be. I do think women like you should be admired and esteemed for what you do. My point was that there is a stark difference between someone who is doing something out of submission to God and someone who is doing something for their own glory and pride.

    And I will respond that I do enjoy Brother Hank’s blog and it is engaging. Healthy debate? Probably, but maybe I am still searching on this issue. And I’m not going to be afraid to admit it because I can’t claim to know the whole truth of the situation so I like to hear the other point of the story and have it challenge me. I like BHs passion in his writing and his devotion to tackling issues. I want to grow as a Christian and that means really questioning what I believe in and why.

    And congratulations on expecting your 8th in February. My daughter’s birthday is the 22nd!

  • Not being mean here. But it is funny that the same people who stand against birth control stand against gun control. They have security systems on their cars and homes, they have 401K’s and IRA’s and savings accounts (insteading of selling all they have and giving to the poor). They would by nice things for themselves and their families while Christians of this nation and others go without food. So it seems that most people get on a paticular hill and fight for it while others get on others hill. I believe this to be a “bondage of liberty” (to go with the Lutheran theme) of a Christian who is free to use birth control or not. Rather that is a pill, a vasectomy, or the old fashioned pull out method. If we want to be dogmatic about this. Don’t lock your doors, or your buy alarm systems or rifles, just allow the Sovereignty of God dictate that. Because nowhere in scripture are told to “protect” our lives or our goods. Right?

  • Sorry didn’t proof read it. I have become dependent on spellcheck :o )

  • Lionel,

    (real quick before i run out the door for work)

    Marriage and sex are unlike gun control, security systems, or ROTH IRA accounts in their “created goodness” by God (in that He created sex to be naturally procreative (and He called it good)). The fact that we must protect ourselves from people who would harm us with guns, or an economy that is up and down – has very little in common with a subversion of a natural and created good of God in making sex procreative. Birth control is not like unto insurance for the family – its more like buying a gun, taking it to war, and shooting blanks.

  • Maybe, maybe not, but you used the trusting God tactic as it relates to bearing children or the choice not to. Nowhere does scripture prohibit us from making “wise” decisions to have limit the amount of children we bear (rather that is to go and be a missionary somewhere or if that is to adopt which my wife and I have decided to do). If a believer feels that they are protecting their family by economically or socially or whatever by limiting the amount of children to bear it is no different from your gun, insurance or any other reason. They are both a-biblical.

  • Genoise,

    Congratulations on #8. May you see all your “troubles” as blessings.

    Hank,

    “. . . buying a gun, taking it to war, and shooting blanks.” What a perfect comparison.

    Lionel,

    That’s just lame. Your entire argument is built on the premise that children are a disaster to be avoided. You’ve put children in the same category as criminals and bankruptcy. I suppose contraception is the same as a sprinkler system to put out fires, too — because having a child is is like being robbed, assaulted, or murdered, or having your house burn down. Find me a Scripture passage specifically calling robbery, murder, or [fill in your favorite disaster] “an heritage from the Lord,” and there might be a shread of logic to your argument.

  • Please show me in the scriptures where God says “you are to produce as many children as possible”. If not you have pressed upon the conscience what the Holy Spirit, the Father nor the Son has! You have in turn become the Holy Spirit. This happens quite a bit with those who have certain convictions so it is not out of the norm. I just pray that you don’t bring a false conviction on those who don’t know the scritpures as well.

  • Still lame, Lionel. You’re off-topic. Intentionally producing children isn’t the point at all.

  • Still need that address David. Let me know when you find it. It shouldn’t be so hard given you have such a strong conviction.

  • Lionel,

    Lest I speak on behalf of David (although he seems to have alluded to this in a recent comment), a Scriptural understanding of marriage, sex, and children is nowhere near “have as many children as you can.” Part of what I purpose to do intentionally at this blog is show that 1) children are not to be seen as a product of the will (hence the idea of using sex as a mere means to a car load of children is totally off base), and 2) children are to be seen as a “gift” given by God, through sex, and therefore they are not to be presumed upon (which is what we do when we decide that if we don’t use birth control they will inevitably appear).

    Here’s a little more about what I’m talking about (as far as misconceptions about birth control is concerned).

  • I appreciate the time taken to answer what I wrote from you and David. Although I think it’s hilarious that the word “bajillions” was keyed on. It was obviously an exaggeration, considering it’s not a real number.

    I would say that some of those commenting need to be careful with the language they’re using. “What do you have that you have not received?” People on both sides of the argument think they are correct, and yet we believe that truth has been revealed to us, not that we went out and found it ourselves through our spiritual deftness. We should maintain a humble stance toward one another, laboring with each other that we might all enjoy Christ more through this dialogue.

  • Brandon-

    I agree with your exhortation brother. Thanks.

    p.s. – since when is bajillion not a real number?

  • Thank you Brandon,

    Point taken.

  • “Still need that address David. Let me know when you find it. It shouldn’t be so hard given you have such a strong conviction.”

    No, I don’t. I have no such conviction that “you are to produce as many children as possible.” Why do you want me to try to prove what I don’t believe, and haven’t said? Still off-topic, still missing the point. I suggest you read everything brother Hank has written on this subject (about a bajillion words), and if you find a single exhortation to “produce as many children as possible,” then ask him.

  • Thaks for the response Hank.

  • Check this out:

    http://www.attorneyatlaw.com/2009/09/woman-blames-birth-control-pill-yazyasmin-for-deadly-blood-clot/

    Be sure to scroll down to the bottom of the page for additional lawsuits that are pending. Funny how we don’t hear more of this in the news. Hmmm…

  • Militarywifey,

    I don’t know anything about the Duggars – and there are all kinds of people out there with all kinds of motives – but I just want to throw in there that mothers of many children do get all kinds of attention – praise and also hatred comes at us everywhere we go. It’s one or the other, there’s just no going out anonymously.. I decided a long time ago that I would hold my head high and be proud of the family that God has given me whether the people looking at me think it is a blessing, or a large carbon footprint. But my point is that maybe some large families seem a little prideful because of that. Or just because of all the attention. But the funny part is that it really isn’t something that should bring a lot of attention (especially at church). But it is different and the number of people in my family is an issue with everything that we do. I don’t want to just say no to invitations and things, but they are often things that wouldn’t work with our family. So part of me wants to explain that we would love to, but we have too many people and it would slow down the rest of the group. But the other part of me does not want the number of children I have to come into every conversation! I don’t think I often make sense on these message boards – but do you see what I mean? Because nobody else has a family like mine, they have no understanding of where I’m coming from. Yet – I don’t want to constantly be telling everyone how many kids I have. When I do – it probably sounds like the prideful Duggar thing you mentioned..


Leave a Reply